Voting With My Feet

I 'm often asked which race is my favorite.  I don’t always give the same answer.  It depends on my mood.  The races I sometimes list as my favorite include the Twin Cities Marathon, the FANS 24 Hour Run, Marathon de Paris, and the Boston Marathon.  I like different races for different reasons.  It also depends who’s asking.  Sometimes I include ultramarathons in my answer.  Sometimes I only include marathons.  As much as I like Twin Cities and Grandma’s, I don’t want to sound like I’m biased toward Minnesota races.  Perhaps there’s a way to measure which races I like best according to objective criteria.

My bucket list keeps growing.  Marathons and ultramarathons are experiencing an explosion in popularity.  To meet the demand, race organizers are constantly offering new races.  The United States now has hundreds of marathons and perhaps just as many ultramarathons.  I also keep hearing about races in other countries.  I keep adding new races to my bucket list.  In some cases, I’ve wanted to do a race for years, but I never get around to it because it’s on the same weekend as several other good races.

I often lament that there aren’t enough weekends for all the good races.  Despite the fact that I can’t possibly run all the races that sound exciting, I still go back to some of my favorite races to do them again.  It’s often a difficult decision.  Do I go back to a race I love, or do I experience one that’s new and different?  If they’re both held the same day, I have to choose.

When consumers choose to return to some stores while shunning others, economists sometime say they’re “voting with their feet.”  As runners, we do the same thing, but it’s somewhat more literal.

So how have I voted with my feet?  Which races do I keep running, even though it means losing the opportunity to experience a new race on the same weekend?

Ranking by Frequency

The simplest way to measure that is to count how many times I’ve done each race.  Here’s a list of marathons that I’ve done at least four times.  I would have made a top 10 list, but there are numerous marathons that I’ve done three times, I and didn’t know how to break the tie.

1	Twin Cities Marathon	11
2	FANS 6/12/24 Hour Run	10
3	Grandma’s Marathon	5
4	Boston Marathon	5
5	Lean Horse Ultras	5
6	Foot Traffic Flat Marathon	4
7	Fargo Marathon	4
8	Rock ‘n’ Roll New Orleans Marathon	4*

* I’m including the Mardi Gras Marathon.

Twin Cities Marathon

The Twin Cities Marathon was my first marathon, and I’ve run it 11 times.  This race was first held in 1982.  It was the first marathon course to include both of the “Twin Cities” of Minneapolis and St. Paul.  I was thinking seriously about doing first edition of this race in 1982, but I injured my knee playing softball and wasn’t able to finish my training.  Instead, I made it my first marathon in 1983.  I returned to do it again in 1988, 1990, 1992, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 2007, 2013 and 2014.  I started doing this race because it was a home town race.  At first, that was my reason for returning so often.  More recently, as I started working on running marathons in every state, I started to bypass this race in favor of doing races in other states.  Now, having already done most of the popular fall races, I return to the Twin Cities Marathon because I think it’s one of the best.

This has always been a well-organized race.  What sets it apart from other large races is the course.  Most urban marathons will take you past a few well-known landmarks and through a few attractive neighborhoods, but they’ll also take you through some boring or blighted parts of town.  The Twin Cities Marathon doesn’t have any unattractive sections.  It starts in downtown Minneapolis and finishes in front of the state capitol in St. Paul.  In between, it’s 100 percent tree-lined parkways.  The course connects four lakes in Minneapolis with parkways along Minnehaha Creek and the Mississippi River.  Then it follows Summit Avenue through St. Paul, passing several churches and large mansions along the way.

The Minneapolis/St. Paul metropolitan area isn’t as populous as New York, Los Angeles or Chicago, but it still turns out huge crowds for this race.  Having done most of the large races in the US, I think this one ranks fourth after New York, Boston and Chicago for the number of people cheering along the route.

As with many fall marathons, it usually has good weather for running, and the leaves are sometimes starting to change color.

I’m sure I have a bit of a home town bias.  I probably wouldn’t have done it 11 times if I had to travel across the country.  I do, however, think it ranks somewhere among the best marathons in the US.

FANS 6/12/24 Hour Runs

FANS stands for Family Network Advocate Services, a program that works with high school and middle school students in the Pillsbury and Philips neighborhoods of Minneapolis.  The FANS 24 Hour Run was first organized in 1990 as a fundraiser for the FANS scholarship fund.  In 2002, they added a 12-hour race.  In 2014, they added a 6-hour race.

I first did the FANS 24 Hour Run in 1998.  It was my first ultra, and it was a life-changing experience.  I learned a lot about training, nutrition, and pacing.  I also learned that you need to be prepared for all kinds of weather – in the same race!

I’ve done FANS a total of 10 times.  After 1998, I returned to do the 24-hour race in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2003, 2007 and 2009.  I did the inaugural 12-hour race in 2002 and returned to do that race again in 2012.  I also did the inaugural 6-hour race in 2014.

FANS has an atmosphere that’s a combination of race, party, family reunion and camping trip.  The race has had three different venues over the years.  The current course is a 2.13 mile loop around Snelling Lake in Fort Snelling State Park.  Many runners pitch tents, forming a tent city along part of the course.  While I was initially drawn to the challenge of running as far as I could in 24 hours, what keeps me coming back is the friendly and festive nature of the event.

FANS has become a family event.  My wife, Deb, and my sister, Betty, have been race volunteers almost every year since 1998.  Betty’s husband, John, often competes in the race-walking division.  When I’m not completing myself, I usually crew for John.

Grandma’s Marathon

Grandma’s Marathon is the oldest marathon in Minnesota.  It was originally organized to promote Grandma’s Saloon & Grill in Duluth, where the race finishes.  It quickly grew to become one of the largest and best organized races in the US.  Even with the proliferation of marathons in the US, it still ranks among the best.

I first ran Grandma’s Marathon in 1984.  I returned to run it in 1991, 1992, 1993 and 1997.  I’ve had a wide range of experiences there.  In 1984, I started too fast, and my second half was about an hour slower than my first half.  In 1992, I broke the three hour barrier with a time of 2:58:17.  That still ranks as my marathon PR.  In 1993, I paced my friend Bill to his first marathon finish.

There’s only one reason why I haven’t done Grandma’s Marathon more often.  In 1998, I started doing FANS.  Since Grandma’s was a week before FANS, it didn’t seem reasonable to do both, if I wanted to be competitive at FANS.

Boston Marathon

It took me years of training to qualify for Boston.  I first qualified in 1990 and ran Boston for the first time in 1991.  I didn’t return until 2012, but I’ve run every year since.

Boston has a storied course and long history, but the first time I ran there, it seemed anti-climactic.  It was my victory lap for qualifying.  The race didn’t have as many participants then, but everyone started at the same time.  As a result, the course seemed more congested.  Three weren’t enough port-o-potties at the start, so I couldn’t get through the lines.  Instead, I had to make a pit stop during the race.

My first Boston experience was tainted by the impression that the race organization wasn’t keeping up with the growth of the field.

When I returned in 2012, I got a completely different impression.  Now I’m in love with this race and its spectators, and I keep coming back.

In 2012, it was no secret that it was going to be hot.  The race officials gave runners the option of deferring their entry to 2013.  Those who chose to run in spite of the heat were encouraged to adjust their goals.  In hot ultras, I’ve keep cool by putting ice in my hat.  Not knowing how often ice would be available, I chose instead to cool myself by pouring water over my head at every opportunity.

Race officials stepped up with extra water and Gatorade at the aid stations.  It helped that for every aid station there were two or three other spots where I could get water from spectators.  The Boston spectators understand the race and they support the runners well.  In addition to providing cups of water, many came out with hoses, and some offered ice or popsicles.

In 2013, I was finished and safely back at my hotel when the bombs went off on Boylston.  By the time I flew home, I was again impressed with both the volunteers and the residents who live along the course.  Volunteers at the finish, instead of running away from the blasts, ran toward the victims to offer assistance.  Medical personnel quickly formed a field hospital.  Many victims lost limbs, but without the quick action of the first responders, they would have lost their lives.

Runners still on the course had to stop.  Many were stranded, with no way to get home to contact their families.  That’s when local residents stepped up.  They opened their homes to complete strangers, offering food, water, shelter, phones and rides.

A year later, the spectators were back.  Nobody was going to deter them from coming out and watching a race on Patriots’ Day.  There was a strong feeling of resolve and residents were determined to take back their city and their holiday.

I’ll probably remember this year’s race for the cold rain and strong headwinds.  As miserable as conditions were for runners, they were worse for spectators.  Did that mean smaller crowds?  No.  They were still are large and loud as ever.

Lean Horse Ultras

The Lean Horse Ultras are held on the Mickelson Trail, which runs north-south through the Black Hills of South Dakota.  Race distances include 50K, 50 miles and 100 miles.  I’ve done the 100 mile race and the 50 mile race three times.

The Black Hills area has always been one of my favorite vacation spots, dating back to camping trips when I was growing up.  I always feel at home there, and I love the smell of a pine forest.

Lean Horse is one of the easiest 100 mile trail runs.  The course is non-technical and has easy logistics, starting and finishing in the same place.

Foot Traffic Flat Marathon

Foot Traffic’s Flat Marathon, on Portland’s Sauvie Island, is always held on July 4th, regardless of where that falls during the week.  I first ran this race in 2010, when the 4th fell on a Sunday.  In 2011, it was on a Monday, and Steve Walters organized two smaller races on Saturday and Sunday.  For runners who did all three, it was called the Firecracker Triple.

I ran the first Firecracker Triple in 2011, skipped 2012, ran the Firecracker Quadzilla in 2013 (when the 4th was on a Thursday), and ran the Firecracker Triple again last year.  This year, I’m signed up to return for another Firecracker Triple.  This year will mark my fifth Flat Marathon.

Sauvie Island is home to farms, including strawberry patches.  The race starts and finishes at a country store called the Pumpkin Patch Market, and they serve strawberry shortcake at the finish.  I like this race by itself, but what keeps me coming back to the Portland area every July is the opportunity to run it as part of a triple or quadzilla.  It probably helps that I always seem to do well in these races.

Fargo Marathon

The Fargo Marathon is well-organized and well-supported by the community.  It’s also convenient.  Although it’s an out-of-state marathon, Fargo is only a four hour drive from Minneapolis.  The course has had several variations, but currently starts and finishes inside the FargoDome, which is also where packet pickup takes place.

Fargo weather in May can be unpredictable.  Starting and finishing inside the dome means you only have to worry about the weather during the race.  You won’t be cold and wet as you wait for the start, and you also won’t be cold and wet after you cross the finish line.  That’s especially nice for spectators watching the finish.

I’ve run the Fargo Marathon in 2005, 2011, 2012 and 2013.  I’ve experienced weather ranging from 30s and rainy to 70s with high humidity.  There have also been years with thunderstorms in the forecast.  The city is committed to holding the race, even if that means delaying the start briefly so a storm can pass.  I like seeing that much community support.

Something else I like about this race is seeing a number of friends from around the country.  Runners working on all 50 states usually choose Fargo as their North Dakota marathon.

Rock ‘n’ Roll New Orleans Marathon

In 2005, I ran the Mardi Gras Marathon.  That race started and finished at the Super Dome.  It ran through the French Quarter and included an out-and-back through the Garden District.

The Mardi Gras Marathon was eventually replaced by the Rock ‘n’ Roll New Orleans Marathon.  The first half of the new course included my favorite parts of the old course.  The second half did something new.  It consisted of out-and-back segments alongside City Park and Lake Pontchartrain.  I liked being able to look for faster or slower friends during the out-and-back sections.

This is also a party race.  During this race, I’ve taken Jell-O shots from spectators, and I’ve had beer and martinis at official aid stations.  More than once, I’ve worn colorful outfits during the race.

In addition to running the Mardi Gras Marathon in 2005, I’ve run the Rock ‘n’ Roll New Orleans Marathon in 2012, 2014 and 2015.  I’ve already signed up to run it again in 2016.

While I like the course, it’s the destination that keeps me coming back.  This race is an excuse to take a mini vacation in New Orleans.

Ranking by Miles

Another measure of how much I like a race is the number of total miles I’ve run there.  This measure ranks ultramarathons higher, but I think that’s appropriate.  A 100 mile race takes a bigger commitment than a marathon.  You need to put more time into the training, you need to do more planning, you may need friends to crew for you, and the race itself takes longer.  This is a better measure of the time and effort I’m willing to put into a race.

Here’s a list of my top races, ranked by total mileage (rounded to the nearest mile).  To be consistent, I listed the top eight races again.

1	FANS 6/12/24 Hour Run	832
2	Lean Horse Ultras	350
3	Twin Cities Marathon	288
4	Across the Years 48 Hour Run	223
5	Grandma’s Marathon	131
6	Boston Marathon	131
7	Olander Park 24 Hour Run	119
8	Comrades Marathon	110

This list includes many of the same races as the first list, but the order is different.  When you rank them by mileage, FANS is by far my favorite.  There are also three races on this list that weren’t included on the first one.

Across the Years 48 Hour Run

This is a fixed time race on a 1.05 mile loop through a large baseball facility in Glendale, AZ.  They have 24 hour, 48 hour, 72-hour and 6-day races.

I’ve only done this race twice.  Both times I was intending to run non-stop for 48 hours and had high hopes of getting close to 200 miles.  Both times, I stopped early in the second day.  The first time it was because of an ankle injury.  It wasn’t bad yet, but I realized that running even one additional lap could make it worse.  The second time, I had to abandon my run/walk pacing strategy because of a hamstring injury that prevented me from walking fast.  To stay on pace for my goal, I had to do too much running, and I was tiring much too quickly.  A winter storm brought rain and strong winds at the worst possible time.  It was in the morning hours when it was coldest.  Having just reached 100 miles, I decided to call it a day.

I like fixed time races.  Having done several 24-hour races, I wanted to give a 48-hour race a try.  Even though I’ve yet to run much more than 24 hours in this race, I’ve still accumulated 223 miles in two tries.

The 72-hour and 6-day races attract some of the best multi-day runners from around the country.  Regardless of which race you chose, you’re going to be sharing the course with living legends.

They call it Across the Years because most of the races finish on January 1st.  You start in one year and finish in the next year.  I’ve yet to run long enough to make it to midnight on New Year’s Eve, but there’s a pretty good chance I’ll be back.

Olander Park 24 Hour Run

This race used to be held at a city park in Sylvania, OH.  I ran it in 1998, when it was the 24-hour national championship.  It was the largest, best-organized and most competitive 24-hour race in the US.  Besides competing for the individual championship, I was on a team that was competing for the team championship.

I only ran this race once, but I gutted out 118.97 miles.  At the time, that was a PR.  I ran until I couldn’t run any more.  Then I walked until I ran out of time.

This is another race where I got to share the course with some of the best ultrarunners I’ve ever seen.  Sadly, this race is no longer around.  That’s the only reason I haven’t been back.

Comrades Marathon

The Comrades Marathon is the oldest and largest ultramarathon in the world.  It’s a point-to-point race in South Africa between the cities of Durban and Pietermaritzburg. The direction of the race alternates.

I’ve done this race twice.  In 2014, I ran it in the downhill direction.  The distance was 89.3 kilometers.  This year, I ran it in the uphill direction.  This year’s course measured 87.7 kilometers.

I recently posted my race report for the 2015 Comrades Marathon.  It’s hard for me to say much more about this race than I did in my race report.

Ranking by Expense

The first two lists each share a home town bias.  The Twin Cities Marathon and FANS are both local races.  It’s easy to return to these races year after year, because I don’t have any travel expenses. When I run the Twin Cities Marathon, my only expenses are the entry fee and parking.  I still think it’s one of the best races in the country, but would I have done it 11 times if it was 2,000 miles away?

Races in outstate Minnesota or in neighboring states involve hotel costs, but I can still save quite a bit of money by driving instead of flying.  When you fly to a race, there’s a more serious financial commitment.

You also add to the expense when you stay in the downtown area of a large city.  That makes races like Boston or New York City more expensive.  Finally, you add significantly to the airfare when you travel to other countries to race.  The fact that I’ve flown to South Africa twice to do the Comrades Marathon says something about how much I like that race.

How much do I like a race?  Why not measure that by how much I’ve been willing to spend, including the travel costs.

Sometimes I combine a race with a vacation in an exciting destination.  If a race was included in an extended vacation, it can be difficult to separate race expenses from travel expenses.  It occurs to me that I shouldn’t separate them.  If the destination is part of what makes the race attractive, then I should count those expenses.  Let’s face it, when I ran the Walt Disney World Marathon, visiting the theme parks was a big part of the draw.

I’ve made solo trips to a lot of races, but I’ve also made quite a few trips with Deb.  Those trips usually involved an extra plane ticket and higher expenses for things like meals.  Our trips together have also generally been longer trips.  Should I count that extra expense?  Well, if I chose the race because it was in a vacation destination, then I probably should.  It’s also worth noting that we both built our vacation around races, even though I was the only one running them.

In some cases, I’ve run two or more races as part of the same trip.  In these cases, it’s difficult to separate the travel expenses for individual races, so I took the total travel expense and divided it by the number of races in that trip.  Then I attributed the same expense to each race.

Here’s a list of favorite races, ranked by how much I’ve spent on each one.  In cases where I’ve done a race multiple times, I totaled the expenses of all the trips.  Rather that listing the actual cost, I’m using a notation similar to restaurant or hotel guides.  The highest total is represented by five dollar signs.  All others have a number of dollar signs proportional to how much I’ve spent on that race.

1	Marathon de Paris	$$$$$
2	London Marathon	$$$$$
3	Comrades Marathon	$$$$$
4	Honolulu Marathon	$$$$$
5	Venice Marathon	$$$$
6	Midnight Sun Marathon	$$$$
7	Rock ‘n’ Roll New Orleans Marathon	$$$
8	Boston Marathon	$$$

This list looks quite a bit different from the first two.  The only races on this list that also ranked high on the other lists are Comrades, Rock ‘n’ Roll New Orleans, and Boston.  The others are races that I only ran once, but each was the centerpiece of a long vacation.

Marathon de Paris and London Marathon

It’s hard to separate Paris and London because they were part of the same trip.  I ran these marathons in 2011, when they fell on back-to-back weekends.  Deb and I made one long trip that included five nights in Paris and five nights in London.  Our largest single expense was airfare, which we booked as a round trip, flying from Minneapolis to Paris and from London back to Minneapolis.  To get from Paris to London, we took a train through the “Chunnel.”

I keep track of travel expenses by trip rather than by race.  Since this trip included two different races, I divided the total by two, attributing half to each race.  These races still cost more than any others.

Did the trip have to be an expensive as it was?  No.  It was our first trip to Europe together, and we wanted to get the most out of it.  It was the trip of a lifetime.

In Paris, we stayed at a hotel that was just two blocks from Champs-Élysées.  During our trip we saw the Eiffel Tower, the Louvre, Musée d'Orsay, Notre Dame, Sainte-Chapelle, Arc de Triomphe, Napoleon’s Tomb, Sacre-Coeur, and the Rodin Museum.  We also took a boat trip along the Seine.

The marathon course is one big loop that starts on Champs-Élysées.  As a long-time follow of Le Tour de France, lining up to start a race along that famous avenue was a magical experience.  The course takes you past many of the city’s most famous landmarks, along the Seine, and through two large parks before finishing within walking distance of where it started.

In London, we stayed at a hotel that was just a few blocks from Buckingham Palace.  We took a city tour, visited a few of the Royal Parks, and took an all day tour to Windsor Castle, Oxford and Stonehenge.

The London course was point-to-point, starting in Greenwich and ending on The Mall in front of Buckingham Palace.  Halfway through the race, we crossed Tower Bridge.  In the last mile, we ran past London Eye, Big Ben and the Houses of Parliament.

Both races rank among my favorite marathon experiences, but it’s hard to separate the races from the experience of visiting both cities.  I would recommend these marathons to anyone as races you have to experience at least once in your life.

Honolulu Marathon

Long before I decided to run marathons in every state, Deb and I decided that we wanted to travel together to every state.  When we traveled to Hawaii, it was the longest flight either one of us had taken.  We didn’t know if we would ever get to Hawaii again, so we wanted to see as much as we could while we were there.

We spent 10 days in Hawaii, beginning with a weekend in Honolulu.  We went shopping in Waikiki and took a tour of Pearl Harbor.  Then we boarded a cruise ship for a seven day, four island cruise.  It was by far the easiest way to see four different islands.  The ship moved from island to island at night, generally leaving port at dinner time and pulling into the next port at breakfast time.  During the daytime, we left the ship for tours and other activities on each island.  We didn’t have to take any inter-island flights or check into different hotels.  Our cabin on the ship was like a traveling hotel room.

Our itinerary was supposed to include two days on Maui, two days on the Big Island and two days on Kauai.  Two distant storms and a distant tsunami combined to create large waves in Hawaii.  It was a once in a generation event that made docking on Maui unsafe.  We stayed in port in Honolulu for the first day and then embarked on a revised itinerary that visited the other islands in the reverse order.  We had two days on Kauai, two days on the Big Island, and one day on Maui.  We didn’t get to do all the things we had planned to do on Maui, but we made the most of our extra day on Oahu, visiting Hanauma Bay, Koko Head Park and Sea Life Park.

The cruise combined well with the Honolulu Marathon.  We began our cruise on a Saturday and returned to Honolulu the following Saturday.  We stayed overnight in Waikiki, and I ran the race on Sunday.  Sunday evening we flew home.

At the time, this was the most expensive vacation we had ever taken, but we got to see and do a lot.  Could I have done the Honolulu Marathon (or another Hawaii race) for less money?  Yes.  Would I choose this race again?  Yes.  In fact, we may go back and do the same cruise again.  We could easily find different things to see and do on each island.

There are a number of other marathons in Hawaii.  Many of my friends prefer the Maui Oceanfront Marathon in January.  Looking at the whole vacation experience, I would do the Honolulu Marathon again, so we could take another Hawaii cruise.

Venice Marathon

This is another race I did only once, but it was part of an international vacation with Deb.  Deb has Italian ancestry, so there’s no place she was more excited about visiting than Italy.  There are a number of good marathons in Italy.  What set this one apart is the unique race experience.  Venice is a city without roads.  It’s built on top of a cluster of more than 100 small islands.

There’s a long bridge connecting Venice to the mainland, but once within the city, you can’t go any farther by car.  Transportation within the city is usually by water or on foot.  There are hundreds of small footbridges over the narrow canals, making it possible to walk from one end of the city to the other.  Running through this city, however, seems impossible.

The first 20 miles of the race are on the Italian mainland.  Then you cross the long bridge over the Venetian lagoon.  The bridge is five kilometers long.  The last five kilometers are through the city, and that’s where it gets kind of wild.  To reach the finish, you have to cross 14 bridges.  All but one are permanent pedestrian bridges over narrow canals.  These bridges have steps, but they’re covered with long wooden ramps to make them more runnable.  The longest bridge is a pontoon bridge over the Grand Canal, which is put in place only for the marathon.

As soon as we arrived in Venice, Deb said she felt like she was home.  She’s usually out of her element on international trips, but this was different.  During our stay in Venice, we took a guided walking tour of the city, a boat tour to the nearby lagoon islands and did some shopping, dining and sightseeing on our own.  We also took a gondola ride, a must for any couple visiting Venice.

Midnight Sun Marathon

This race is in Tromsø, Norway, which is well north of the Arctic Circle.  The race is held near the Summer solstice, when the sun never goes below the horizon.  The Midnight Sun Marathon begins at 8:30 PM, so most participants are still on the course at midnight.  This was another race that offered a unique experience.

To get to Tromsø, we had to take three flights.  First we flew to Amsterdam on a Delta flight that connected with a KLM flight to Oslo.  From there we had to book a separate itinerary on a regional airline to get to Tromsø.  The airfare was expensive, but that’s the cost of traveling to one of the far corners of the Earth to see the midnight sun.

Our sightseeing in Tromsø included Polaria (an arctic museum), the cable car ride to Storsteinen (Big Rock) on mount Fløya, the Arctic Cathedral, and a traditional midsummer celebration at Troms Folkmuseum.  We also took a tour around neighboring islands called “Fjords and Photography.”

Since we needed to take three flights to get home, we couldn’t avoid having an overnight stay in Amsterdam.  Once we realized that, we scheduled an early enough arrival into Amsterdam that we could see some of the city.  We stayed at a downtown hotel, toured Dam Square and the Anne Frank House, and had dinner at Pancakes Amsterdam!  There are rings of canals around the city center, and it reminded Deb of Venice.

Because of the extra night in Amsterdam, this trip was more expensive than it probably needed to be, but Deb really enjoyed Amsterdam, and we’ll probably have to go there again.

So which race is my favorite?

Depending on which criterion I use, I could conclude that my favorite race is the Twin Cities Marathon, the FANS 24 Hour Run, Marathon de Paris or the London Marathon.  Looking at all three lists, I notice that there’s only one race that ranked in the top eight each time.  That’s the Boston Marathon.